130-150: Poor Telemachus needs to work out more. Odysseus is just a beast, I guess.
163-167: To be noted later--Leodes loathes the suitors' ways.
Odysseus tells the swineherd and the cowherd that he's, you know, him, and they believe him and are super excited and still loyal. Why, then, did he not tell them earlier? It's the same with Penelope. Telemachus believed him. Why does he still tell stories to everyone?
Here's what's rather unnerving: the swineherd tells Eurycleia to stay away, especially if she or the other maids hear men moaning and groaning and screaming (425-431). UM.
Then, in lines 451-484, Odysseus reveals his amazing strength and identity and anger and whatnot, and it seems to build in anticipation of his wrath. IT IS EXCITING.
RE: "I GUESS PEOPLE DON'T CHANGE."
ReplyDeleteBasically, this is a big deal, and this is why guys like Homer can write something 4000 years ago and we still recognize very human beings doing very human things. The same is true for stuff that Shakespeare wrote: he shows human beings doing stuff that they always do. Posers or cheaters, noble or brave, courageous or loyal-- this is stuff about human nature.
The idea you're talking about here is one of anthropology (anthropology = anthros (man) + logos (words about) ). It's talking about the nature of what it means to be a human being. What it's like. What we're like. What we're not like. What we're about.
When I say the word "nature," I don't just mean leaves and grass and butterflies and hippie treehuggers. Something's "nature" is the way it IS, what it's like, how it works, what it's for and how it came to be.
For example, we don't walk up to human beings and start sitting on them like they're a chair (not usually). We don't walk up to a chair and start talking to it like it's a human being and that's totally natural. Cos it's not. There's something about a chair that wants to be sat on, about a human being that demands speech and reason. There's something about a dog that indicates it's okay that it could be a pet. It'd be wierd and wrong to have a pet coffee cup, or a pet human being, because it's against their nature. We WILL talk more about this later.
So when you look at the characters in the Odyssey, you notice how terribly HUMAN some of them seem. Maybe not as realistic as it could be, but you notice a lot of similarities between how they act and how people act now. That's because human nature hasn't changed ONE BIT.
This gets to be a big deal, because people have different ideas about "anthropology." Some people think that human nature can change (we could make ourselves perfect!). Some people think that human nature never changes (we're poor miserable sinners). Some people think that human beings don't have natures, but that we're just the product of our environment (we're evolved, and could turn into charles xavier at any moment).
What do you think about human nature? Does "what it means to be human" change, ever? Why or why not? #respond
Note that the relationship between Host and Guest plays part of the "human nature" discussion. Being a good host or guest is part of being a good human being, because it's part of our nature to be either host or guest when we are able.
ReplyDeleteOnly beasts and gods keep you captive.
Basically, that's what I was trying to say, but I just said it in like 25 less words than you. Human nature is sinful. "What it means to be human" changed when we were forgiven. It was great. We're still sinners, but we're perfect in God's sight, which is great. As for how we behave, I don't think it really changes. Like you said, Homer, Shakespeare. It varies, I suppose, but people are people--made in God's image and then poisoned by sin. So we just... do what we do. But luckily, like I've said, forgiveness...
ReplyDeleteI don't know if that's what you meant.
Yeah. Basically, sinful human nature.
ReplyDeleteBUT: discussion of "human nature" is more than just that. Why isn't it cool to have human slaves? Because treating a human being like a piece of property is ...not natural. It's against their nature to treat a human being like a slave. The bible is cool with slaves (treating them well, of course). Here in America, we're not. Why?
Because we learned something about human nature: we're not meant to be slaves. Hence, things like the Declaration of Independence, which talk about human nature and how we should or shouldn't be treated.
"Sinful human nature" is true, and I am NOT trying to detract from that. I AM trying to explain an understanding of human nature that applies to other parts of our life. Why do we live together in big groups of people? Why do we marry and talk to each other? that's a... different discussion. We'll talk about it more later on, for sure.